(Updated 7/17/20). Have you heard of the anti-aging supplement Protandim? Maybe you saw a YouTube video of when Protandim was featured on ABC's PrimeTime? Protandim called an “Nrf2 activator” has been said to be the “only supplement clinically proven to reduce oxidative stress in humans by an average of 40 percent in 30 days.” That’s fancy talk for Protandim is a type of antioxidant supplement. Unlike other products, Protandim is said to work by helping the body increase its own natural antioxidant enzymes. Sounds good, but does Protandim work, or is it a scam? These are some of the questions I will address in this review. The good news is there are clinical studies on Protandim. I will use that research in this review and help you understand it. By the end of this review, you'll have a better idea if Protandim is right for you.
Other Anti-Aging Supplement Reviews
What Is Protandim?
Protandim might sound like a drug but it's really a dietary supplement. It's said to combat free radical damage (oxidative stress) by stimulating the production of the body's own natural antioxidant enzymes such as catalase, superoxide dismutase (SOD), and glutathione.
The idea goes like this: instead of taking individual antioxidant supplements (like vitamins C, E, etc.) in the hopes they will battle free radicals and combat aging and disease, Protandim is supposed to augment or ramp up your own naturally occurring free radical defenses.
It's a novel concept to be sure.
The supplement website (LifeVantage.com) says the supplement is “clinically proven to reduce oxidative stress to levels of that of a 20-year-old.” Oxidative stress refers to the stress (cellular damage) caused by free radicals.
What Does The Name Mean?
My guess is the name was chosen because the ingredients are supposed to “pro-actively” work in “tandim” to help defend us against aging and disease.
Who Makes Protandim?
Protandim is a product of a company called LifeVantage Corporation. LifeVantage is actually a publicly traded stock on the NASDAQ. Its stock symbol is LFVN.
The company is located at 9785 S. Monroe Street, Suite 300 Sandy, UT 84070. If you google this address you will see a building with “LifeVantage” at the top. That is good. It tells us the company has a physical location.
Contact LifeVantage
Call the company at 866-460-7241.
The Better Business Bureau gave LifeVantage an A- rating when this review was updated. See the BBB file for updates and more information.
Protandim Ingredients
According to the product's website, there are 5 ingredients in each caplet of Protandim which add up to 625 mg:
Amount Per Serving (1 caplet) | Percent Daily Value |
---|---|
Calcium (as dicalcum phosphate & calcium carbonate) 77 mg | 8% DV |
Proprietary Blend Consisting of the following | 675 mg |
Milk thistle extract (Silybum marianum) seed. | |
Bacopa extract (Bacopa monnieri) whole herb | |
Ashwagandha extract (Withania somnifera) root | |
Green tea extract (Camellia sinensis) leaf | |
Turmeric extract (Curcuma longa) rhizome |
Notice in the table above they tell us the source of each ingredient:
- The milk thistle extract is derived from the seeds of the plant
- The bacopa extract is derived from the whole plant
- The ashwagandha extract is derived from the root of the plant
- The green tea extract comes from the leaves of the plant
- The turmeric extract is derived from the underground stems (rhizome) of the plant
Other Ingredients
The supplement label also tells the supplement has these other ingredients:
- Microcrystalline Cellulose
- Croscarmellose Sodium Silica
- Modified Cellulose
- Stearic Acid
- Magnesium Stearate
- Maltodextrin
- Medium Chain Triglycerides
These other ingredients play no role in the effects or benefits of the product. They make up the caplets and/or help with the delivery of the ingredients into the body.
I want to commend the LifeVantage company for sponsoring much of the research below. It's rare to find a product with so many clinical studies.
Protandim Research
Protandim is different from a lot of supplements because there really is clinical research on this product. Below is a summary of the Protandim research with links to the studies for those who want to see them for themselves.
Because scientific studies can be wordy and complicated for most people, I will summarize the study and put the research in the proper context to make it easier to understand.
2016 Protandim Research
Study
The Effect of Protandim® Supplementation on Athletic Performance and Oxidative Blood Markers in Runners.
Study summary: In this investigation, researchers tested if taking Protandim (675 mg/day) for 90 days would improve 5K running performance and reduce TBARS. The study involved 38 runners who were randomly given either Protandim or a placebo.
Results: After 90 days, those taking Protandim (1x/day) showed no improvement in running performance compared to those taking the placebo. In addition, Protandim did not reduce TBARS or alter levels of antioxidant enzymes superoxide dismutase (SOD) or glutathione peroxidase (GPX) during resting periods. The researchers report however that in those over age 35, Protandim improved SOD twice as much as those taking the placebo.
See the full review of this study
Study
Longer lifespan in male mice treated with a weakly estrogenic agonist, an antioxidant, an α-glucosidase inhibitor or an Nrf2-inducer.
Study summary: Here, researchers sought to determine what effect various compounds had on extending the life of mice. Protandim was one of the compounds tested. The other compounds tested in the study were fish oil, ursodeoxycholic acid (a bile acid, used to dissolve gall stones), and the diabetes drug, metformin. Different mice received the different compounds for their entire lifespan.
Beginning at 10 months of age, mice received Protandim at a dosage of 600 parts per million (ppm) in their food. This amount was chosen because it was similar to the Protandim dosage used by people. When the mice were 17 months old, the dosage was increased to 1200 ppm because this was thought to be better.
Study results: researchers noted male mice getting Protandim had a 7% increase in average lifespan. The supplement did not lengthen the life span of female mice. The researchers also point out that while the average lifespan was increased, the maximum lifespan did not increase. Regardless, this was a mouse study.
2013 Protandim Research
Study
Study
Upregulation of phase II enzymes through phytochemical activation of Nrf2 protects cardiomyocytes against oxidant stress
Study results: Researchers noted that mouse heart cells treated with Protandim increased the production of an antioxidant/anti-inflammatory enzyme called Heme oxygenase 1 (HO-1) as well as Nrf2. This was a test-tube study using isolated mouse heart cells.
This investigation is derived from a Masters's Thesis in 2010. The title of the MS Thesis is “UPREGULATION OF HEME OXYGENASE-1 AND ACTIVATION OF NRF2 BY THE PHYTOCHEMICALS IN PROTANDIM .” It is not unusual for a quality MS thesis or other graduate work to go through the peer-review process and be published.
2012 Protandim Research
Study
Antioxidants for the Treatment of Patients with Severe Angioproliferative Pulmonary Hypertension? Published in the journal, Antioxidants in Redox Signaling.
Summary: This is a rat study. Protandim increased antioxidant enzymes in rats, protecting the hearts from damage.
Study
Phytochemical activation of Nrf2 protects human coronary artery endothelial cells against an oxidative challenge published in the journal, Oxidative Medicine and Cellular Longevity.
Summary: This is a test tube study. Human coronary (heart) artery cells were treated with Protandim (20 micrograms per milliliter) or placebo (ethanol). All cells were then treated with hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) to induce free radical damage. Cells treated with Protandim showed less cell death than those getting the placebo.
Study
Protandim does not influence alveolar epithelial permeability or intrapulmonary oxidative stress in human subjects with alcohol use disorders.
Summary: This investigation showed the supplement did not work. To be fair, this was a strange study. Researchers looked at 30 alcoholics . The researchers stuck tubes down the throats of the subjects to take fluid samples from their lungs. They randomly gave the people 1350 mg of Protandim per day or a placebo, for a week. They tested for various things to see if Protandim helped the people. It didn’t.
I don't know how relevant this study is to whether Protandim works or not. I mentioned it because it was a human study. For a much more in-depth review of this study—written by a doctor—see the review posted on ScienceBasedMedicine.org.
2011 Protandim Research
Study
Oxidative stress in health and disease: the therapeutic potential of Nrf2 activation.
Summary: This is a test tube study. Essentially, Protandim altered cellular pathways involved in antioxidant enzyme production and colon cancer, cardiovascular disease (heart disease), and Alzheimer's disease. This is encouraging, but, humans are more complicated than isolated cells. This study doesn’t prove the supplement reduces the risk of any of these diseases.
Study
The role of manganese superoxide dismutase in skin cancer.
Summary: This is a mouse study. Here, researchers reported the supplement reduced tumor growth in mice. For the most part, this appears to be a review of previous research relating free radical damage to the development of skin cancer.
Study
Protandim attenuates intimal hyperplasia in human saphenous veins cultured ex vivo via a catalase-dependent pathway.
Summary. This is a test tube study. Basically, a blood vessel was bathed in Protandim. Researchers noted the supplement reduced the thickening of vein cells.
2010 Protandim Research
Study
The Dietary Supplement Protandim Decreases Plasma Osteopontin and Improves Markers of Oxidative Stress in Muscular Dystrophy Mdx Mice.
Summary. This is a mouse study. Mice were genetically created to have muscular dystrophy. They were given Protandim at a dosage similar to what is recommended for humans. After 6 months, the mice given Protandim showed a 46%reduction in the free radical breakdown of fat (TBARS). TBARS stand for ThiobarBituric Acid Reactive Substances.
The greater the TBAR level, the greater free radical damage. Thus, reducing TBARS is taken to be a good thing. This doesn't prove Protandim helps muscular dystrophy. People with muscular dystrophy should discuss this with their doctor for greater insights.
Study
The chemopreventive effects of Protandim: modulation of p53 mitochondrial translocation and apoptosis during skin carcinogenesis.
Summary: This is a mouse study. Protandim reduced damage to the mitochondria of mouse cells. of this study. The mitochondria, often called the “powerhouse” of the cell, make energy —and makes free radicals in the process. The mitochondria are a major area of anti-aging research.
Study
Chronic pulmonary artery pressure elevation is insufficient to explain right heart failure.
Summary. This is a rat study. Researchers tested if the supplement helped pulmonary blood pressure. After 6 weeks, Protandim did not reduce pulmonary artery blood pressure or the number of lung lesions. These researchers did say “our data point to a cardioprotective effect of Protandim.” But, this is a vague statement.
2009 Protandim Research
Study
Protandim, a fundamentally new antioxidant approach in chemoprevention using mouse two-stage skin carcinogenesis as a model.
Summary: This is a mouse study.
Study
Synergistic induction of heme oxygenase-1 by the components of the antioxidant supplement Protandim.
Summary: This is a test tube study. Cells treated with supplements showed significant increases in glutathione, an antioxidant compound. This is the study LifeVantage lists as “proof” Protandim increases glutathione levels by 300%. It may raise glutathione 300% – in a test tube – but does the same effect occur in people?
2006 Protandim Research
Study
The induction of human superoxide dismutase and catalase in vivo: a fundamentally new approach to antioxidant therapy.
This is a human study. 39 healthy men and women, age 20-78 years were given Protandim (675 mg per day) between 30 and 120 days.
Study Summary:
1. Protandim caused a significant increase in the antioxidant superoxide dismutase (SOD) in red blood cells.
2. TBARS declined by 40% after 30 days
3. SOD in red blood cells increased by 30% after 120 days
4. Catalase decreased by 40% after 120 days
5. There was a non-significant rise (4.9%) in uric acid.
6. No change in CRP levels was seen.
7. No change in HDL, LDL or triglycerides were seen.
Protandim Research Summary
Here is a quick summary of the research:
Study Year / Title | Study Type (Human, mouse, etc.) |
2016 Research | |
The Effect of Protandim Supplementation on Athletic Performance and Oxidative Blood Markers in Runners | Humans |
Longer lifespan in male mice treated with a weakly estrogenic agonist, an antioxidant, an α-glucosidase inhibitor or a Nrf2-inducer | mice |
2013 Research | |
Upregulation of phase II enzymes through phytochemical activation of Nrf2 protects cardiomyocytes against oxidant stress | Mouse heart cells |
2012 Research | |
Antioxidants for the treatment of patients with severe angioproliferative pulmonary hypertension? | Rats |
Phytochemical Activation of Nrf2 Protects Human Coronary Artery Endothelial Cells against an Oxidative Challenge | Test tube study |
Protandim does not influence alveolar epithelial permeability or intrapulmonary oxidative stress in human subjects with alcohol use disorders. | Humans |
2011 Research | |
Oxidative stress in health and disease: the therapeutic potential of Nrf2 activation. | Test tube study |
The Role of Manganese Superoxide Dismutase in Skin Cancer | Mice |
Protandim attenuates intimal hyperplasia in human saphenous veins cultured ex vivo via a catalase-dependent pathway | Test tube study |
2010 Research | |
The Dietary Supplement Protandim® Decreases Plasma Osteopontin and Improves Markers of Oxidative Stress in Muscular Dystrophy Mdx Mice | Mice |
The Chemopreventive Effects of Protandim: Modulation of p53 Mitochondrial Translocation and Apoptosis during Skin Carcinogenesis | Mice |
Chronic Pulmonary Artery Pressure Elevation Is Insufficient to Explain Right Heart Failure | Rats |
2009 Research | |
Protandim, a Fundamentally New Antioxidant Approach in Chemoprevention Using Mouse Two-Stage Skin Carcinogenesis as a Model | Mice |
Synergistic induction of heme oxygenase-1 by the components of the antioxidant supplement Protandim. | Test tube study |
2006 Research | |
The induction of human superoxide dismutase and catalase in vivo: a fundamentally new approach to antioxidant therapy. | Humans |
To be fair, it's possible I may have missed some research. I'll update this table as I become aware of new research.
My Thoughts On The Research
While Protandim has been the subject of several clinical investigations, only 3 of them involved humans. They are:
- The 2006 study (click to see study)
- The 2012 study (click to see study)
- The 2016 study (click to see the study)
Protandim And Weight Loss
Can Protaindm help you lose weight? There is no good evidence for this. None of the above clinical investigations was about weight loss. To the credit of LifeVangage, they do not market this supplement for weight reduction.
Protandim And Multiple Sclerosis
Is this supplement worthwhile if you have Multiple sclerosis (MS)? Some have put forth the idea that disruption of free radical stress – via stabilizing Nrf2 (the stuff this supplement is supposed to improve) – might help MS. So, is there any proof? There was an investigation presented in 2011 at the 5th Joint triennial congress of the European and Americas Committees for Treatment and Research in Multiple Sclerosis Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
The title of the presentation was: Nrf2 activators: a novel strategy to promote oligodendrocyte survival in multiple sclerosis? Here, researchers treated rat and human oligodendrocytes with several compounds ― one of which was Protandim ― and then exposed the cells to a chemical to create free radical damage.
These researchers noted Protandim was seen as “the most potent inducer” of Nrf2 antioxidant enzymes defenses. In other words, Protandim helped the most.
This is intriguing, but it's not the same as giving it to people with MS to see if their symptoms improved.
There is also some evidence that stimulating Nrf2 might reduce cellular inflammation via inhibition of NFkb. Inhibition of NFkb is also something another supplement – called Anatabloc – was supposed to do. Currently, though there is little human proof for Protandim improving quality of life in those with MS.
See the Anatabloc review.
Protandim And ABC Primetime
In 2005, this supplement was featured on ABC's Primetime news show. In this segment, ABC correspondent John Quinones met with Dr. Joe McCord, a respected researcher whose name appears on many of the Protandim clinical studies. According to his Wikipedia page, as a grad student, Dr. McCord was involved with the discovery of Superoxide Dismutase, an important free radical savaging enzyme. Here is the ABC Primetime segment :
Basically, John Quinones gets a blood test to measure his TBAR level (an indicator of oxidative stress). He's given Protandim for 2 weeks and then returns to the lab where he has his blood tested again.
Dr. McCord tells John Quinones the supplement caused a “45% reduction” in oxidative stress and goes on to say this is the level seen in a “newborn baby”. The ABC Primetime segment is often used as proof the supplement really works. But, as I see it, one problem is John Quinones doesn't have is blood tested by an independent lab. This is bad science in my opinion.
Of course, the Primetime segment is interesting. But it's been over a decade since this segment aired. You'd think such an impressive result would warrant a follow-up. I wish Primetime and John Quinones would do a follow-up story.
Update. Dr. McCord is now involved with the PB125 supplement.
Protandim And The FDA
In 2017, the FDA reached out to LifeVantage to inform them they considered Protandim to be a drug and not a supplement based on claims made about it as an NRF2 Synergizer. Basically, the FDA was saying the claims being made at the time, made people think the supplement could treat disease. This is something not allowed under US supplement regulation. This may be the reason for the dramatic change in the LifeVantage website and marketing. There are no more claims about the effects of the supplement. Instead, the company now calls itself “a wellness and personal care company” and makes references to “bio-hacking.”
Do Doctors Endorse Protandim?
While the supplement is not endorsed by the American Medical Association (they don't endorse any supplement), I'm sure some physicians believe in it – and others who don't.
Does Protandim Have Caffeine?
According to the product website, each tablet has 1.8mg of caffeine. That's much less than in a cup of coffee and most energy drinks. I don't think this small amount would keep people up at night, but because we are all different it might be wise to not take it close to bedtime.
Is It Kosher?
No. this supplement is not kosher or organic. It is however made in the US. That is good.
Protandim Side Effects
Are there any Protandim dangers out there? I don't think so. I believe this supplement is pretty safe. I am not aware of any side effects. That said, here are a few general things you might want to think about if your not healthy. This list is not complete:
- Start with less than the recommended dosage for the first week to see how you respond
- Speak to your doctor/ pharmacist if you are pregnant or breastfeeding
- Stop taking the supplement at least 2 weeks before having surgery
- Speak to your doctor /pharmacist if you take any prescription drugs like blood thinners
One study noted the supplement might raise uric acid levels (by 4.9%). Would this be bad for those who suffer from gout? Currently, there is no direct proof gout pain is increased by Protandim. See the review of Tart Cherry Juice for more info.
While allergic reactions are likely uncommon, LifeVantage does mention this possibility in some people. Specific symptoms mentioned on the LifeVantage website include:
- gastrointestinal disturbances (i.e., stomach ache, diarrhea, vomiting)
- sometimes as a headache or rash on the hands or feet
Stop taking the supplement if you experience these symptoms.
The company website warns against using the supplement if you are undergoing chemotherapy or radiation therapy for cancer. This is likely because of the unknowns of combining antioxidants with some cancer therapies. If you have cancer or are getting treatment for it, ask your doctor. I'm glad the LifeVantage company informs people about this.
LifeVantage also stresses the importance of talking to a doctor if you have any autoimmune disease like arthritis or Type I diabetes. I'm not aware of any problems in anyone but I appreciated the company mentioning this.
How To Measure Your TBARS
Remember TBARS are a measure of free radical damage (oxidative stress) of cells. Protandim is said to reduce TBARS. The TBAR test is also called a Lipid Peroxidase test. Ask your physician about this test. For those who really want to know if Protandim is working, getting this test done first—and a month later— might be a good idea. I'm not sure if insurance covers the test or not. Talk to your doctor for more information on this.
Aged Garlic Extract also has some evidence it might reduce TBARS (click to see review)
TrueScience Brand
True Science is a brand name under which various beauty products made by the company can be identified. Products offered under the True Science brand include:
- Shampoo
- Scalp serum
- Facial cleanser
- Eye serum
What is PhysIQ?
PhysIQ is the brand name associated with various fitness-related products. This brand includes:
- Fat burn supplements
- Prebiotics
- Whey protein
- Appetite suppressants
Protandim For Dogs
Protandim Dogs (formally called Canine Health) is for pets. According to the LifeVantage website, this supplement contains 150 mg of the same ingredients as Protandim – as well as omega 3 fatty acids and collagen. The website goes on to say: “Reducing oxidative stress in dogs may reduce many of the disorders associated with aging in canine.” To support this, the organization states a 3rd party animal health company has found the supplement reduces oxidative stress in dogs.
Protandim vs. PB125
PB125, by Pathways Bioscience, is another supplement whose makers claim can reduce TBARS and activate NrF2. PB125 is the supplement by Dr. Joe McCord and associates. Recall Dr. McCord used to be associated with the LifeVantage company.
While PB125 is said to be the next generation of NrF2 activators, no studies have yet compared these supplements to each other to see which is better. The ingredients in both products are different for the most part.
See the PB125 Review for much more information.
Protandim vs. Tru Niagen
The Tru Niagen supplement boasts research showing it can raise NAD+ levels in humans. Tru Niagen is based on nicotniamide riboside a form of niacin (vitamin B3).
The idea of slowing aging by raising NAD+ is different than Protandim. So far no clinical studies have compared these supplements to each other. While the original Protandim does not contain nicotinamide riboside, the Life Vantage company does offer another version called the “NAD Synergizer” which contains niacin.
Protandim vs. Elysium Basis
Basis by Elysium is a popular anti-aging supplement that contains very different ingredients than Protandim. Like Tru Niagen, Elysium Basis also is an NAD+ booster supplement. So, which is better? Unfortunately, there are no head-to-head studies yet.
See the Elysuim Basis Review for more insights.
Protandim vs. SeroVital
You've probably seen TV ads for SeroVital. How does Protandim compare to SeroVital? Both supplements contain different ingredients and are touted to work differently.
While Protandim is said to help boost our bodies antioxidant enzymes, SeroVital is marketed to raise human growth hormone (HGH).
If we just look at the research, Protandim wins hands down. The makers of Serovital only have one study.
Where To Buy Protandim
This supplement is not sold in stores like Walmart, Target, Cosco, CVS, Walgreens, Kmart, or BJs. It's also not sold at GNC or Vitamin Shoppe. Rather, it's mostly purchased from LifeVantage independent distributors.
It is also available online as well although when using a distributor, you may get the individualized attention you might not get by buying it yourself.
Protandim Price
According to the LifeVantage website, a one-month supply (30 capsules) costs $59.99 retail. If you order it through a LifeVantage distributor, it costs $49.99 – and that is on a monthly basis. In other words, that means auto-shipments. If you want to purchase one month only to test drive it first, speak to your LifeVantgage independent distributor.
Protandim Yearly Cost
Let's round the price up to $50 a month. In one year, the supplement would cost you $600. Shipping and tax may be extra. If you only want to order 1 bottle to try yourself, you can get it on Amazon too.
My Suggestions
If you can afford it, go ahead and give it a try for a month or so and see if you feel any better. If you really want to know for sure, get your TBARS measured first.
Remember, exercise will also reduce TBARS too.
Protandim Pro & Con
Here's a quick summary of what I liked and didn't like. These are my opinions. Yours may be different.
Pro | Con |
---|---|
There are clinical studies on Protandim | Not all the studies are on humans |
Company has been around a long time | Not available in stores |
Company sponsors research on Protandim | Expensive |
Lots of hype about benefits |
Does Protandim Work?
While I'm intrigued at the prospect of slowing down aging, I'm can't say for sure if Protandim works or not. The research is intriguing but in my opinion three's not enough human research yet to draw conclusions. So, does Protandim really work? Let's just say I'm looking forward to more human clinical studies.
Here is it is on Amazon If you want to check it out/see what others are saying
Chris Bendet says
Wow, some people will do anything to discredit a company in the name a a nickel a click..If you look at LV, they are debt free and have significant growth in the last 5 years. Chances are within 5 they’ll be a billion dollar company despite blogs for paid clicks like this attempting to make light of 16 published studies on pubmed.gov which must be peer reviewed by 3 independent entities to even be considered. Something like 90% of all submitted never make it to being published.
Next, you talk about all of the studies being on rats or mice, while this is mostly true, 99% of the time that is how all studies for the pharmaceutical or other products start…I would love for you to give your readers a list of any other nutritional supplement company that has anything like it…I’m sure we’ll be waiting for some time for that, but you’ll never actually post anything like that because your goal is to get paid when people go to research the company for themselves after being exposed to it…be honest with your readers, you get paid because people want to know more about LV and go to the web instead of places like Google Scholar and Pubmed.gov to do their own research.
LV has doctors, chiropractors, psychologist, psychiatrists and many great and amazing people who are distributors with the company. There are many stories of people who have taken the product who have had minor and significant health issues that have been helped through the use of the products.
I find it sad that some people have nothing better to do with their lives than make money off of things they know little about with viewers who don’t understand you have no expertise but were smart enough to know how to scam your way to paid clicks. The real scam here is you, but unfortunately people are naive enough to think you have some insight…must be a sad life knowing you make money trying to discredit products based on little facts and less actual education but on guesses and belittling research and it’s significance.
I pray for you, it must be hard to day after day create doubt in people’s minds for money.
Joe says
Chris, thanks for writing and sharing your thoughts. Since I believe your words are directed to me, let me address your questions as calmly and respectfully as I can – and I have a few questions for you also.
1. I’m not trying to discredit anyone. I looked at all the research and lines of evidence promoters use to tout the product and put it in perspective so people can make a more informed decision. There is nothing wrong with this. I could have said ” it doesn’t work” but instead I ended my review saying that I was not sure and that I was “intrigued” at the possibility. If I was slamming the product I would not have said this. I went into this review unbiased and I remain unbiased, although I do feel some distributors could do better at how they promote the product. I’m content to wait for more human research.
2. I do not accept paid advertising on this website so there are no “paid clicks” here.
3. You say 99% of time studies of drugs are started with lab animal studies. This is true. Protandim has been around MANY years. Where are all the human studies now?
4. You say “I would love for you to give your readers a list of any other nutritional supplement company that has anything like it (protandim).” Ok here’s one – Juice Plus. Much of the research on that product is on people. I don’t like promoting any product over another and this is not an endorsement, but that product has more human research than Protandim. Here’s my review of Juice Plus. What do you have to say about that?
5. You say I know little about this (supplements, I assume). I’m the first to say nobody knows everything. I sure dont, but since you brought it up, I’ve spent 15 years investigating supplements. I’ve written a 400 page book about supplements. I’ve been on TV, radio and print media about supplements. I looked at all of the research on protandim. Can YOU tell me what I missed? No testimonials, lets talk about the science.
6. I did not base my opinion of the product on just a little facts. I looked at the SAME evidence promoters use. They say “go to pub med” and so that’s what I did. Again, if you show me how I went wrong, I’ll be very glad to consider what you tell me.
Atomic says
I’m glad we have someone who says it helps with his workouts. I had the same results too plus more.
croulier says
fyi they have done two stock buy backs which is not a good sign, and since all the original mucky-ity-mucks have fled the new board is just watching over a sinking ship…sell your stock if you have it
Luke says
Totaly understand — I like busy people they get things done –I’ll be here anytime you would like to chat — I do this full time. Have a great night, thanks for your interest.
Luke says
We need to be friends because your amazing and I love your postes keep up the amazing work love it.
Joe says
Luke, thanks I don’t know how amazing i am but I appreciate the vote of confidence 🙂
Luke says
That was the first book I read that’s all, there was good info in it.
The owners of the Company are the Hansen’s and the Taylor’s from Idaho Falls.
I just didn’t want any one reading this thinking I made the comments I made to just promote some other crapy nonsense BS nutrition company — if you privetly email me I would love to share with you anything you would like to know forword you info and give you my cell number if you wanted to chat. I’m one of the top distributers in Canada with this company.
Joe says
Thanks Luke I’ll circle back eventually to learn more about it. Juggling multiple reviews at the moment.
Luke says
I would love to share — since 18 I’ve known our health is in our hands and we need complete nutrition, book I read was Death By Diet by Robert Bearfoot.
That book gave me hope that the human body can heal it’s self ( but only if it has all the things it needs)
I’ve studied health and looked at almost everything you can think of including quantum Physics and all kinds of treatments.
But let’s just look
At healthy kids and athletes what do they do? They do what the want, eat what they want, run around, they don’t think about health, why? Because their young and Strong.
Our bodies can take care of us with out us thinking about it, are there people that live well into their Hundreds with no pain, drugs and no health issues at all?
The answer is yes The Sherpa Tribes people, the Inuit in Canada (that eat traditionally) the Tkingki tribes people in Alaska to name a few.
What’s the common factor with these people?
1 thing, they get complete nutrition from their diet.
The company I get my nutrition from made 3 products that give your body everything it needs from A-Z and leaves nothing out.
The company was created for this purpose by Billionaires for them selfs and their families.
They have done things no company on earth could do because money was no object.
I’ve been in a few MLM’s over the last 15 years I’ve seen, researched just about all of them — nothing on this planet compairs to this company.
If you look the company up on line you can’t find one negative thing, and their 10 years old and in 65 countries and I bet you never heard of them but that’s going to change things are blowing up.
In 10 years of operating the owners never took 1 dime out of the company, they put all profits back in to grow and improve the product.
Joe says
Luke, you said a lot but you didn’t tell me the name of the company. That’s all I needed to know. Honestly Bob Bearfoot raises a red flag in my book. If I remember right, he was promoting Coral Calcium on TV with Kevin Trudeau years ago. Can you tell me the names of the billionaires who created the product for their families? Just give me 2 of their names please.
Luke says
Thank you for your interest if you do want to know what I’m involved with, please email me on my private email lukemd33@gmail.com
Joe says
Luke, can you get me an idea here?
Luke says
I’m baffled at those of you defending this company, it’s an illegal Pyramid, what part of Illegal Pyramid do you not understand?
The product, company, people liking the product is irrelevant, they weren’t smart enuf in the beginning to create a legal enterprise 9 out of 10 companies in this industry make this mistake, do to not receiving proper legal advice on Anti Pyramid Selling Laws.
I almost made the same mistake hiring a good CEO in the industry saved me from this blunder.
If anyone reading this has health issues and or looking to build a health business in a legally compliant company you can email me @ lukemd33@gmail.com see what a real health product looks like.
Joe says
Luke, I have to ask. what is the health product?
Ben says
As a distributor who hasn’t done much more than take the product, protandim has been a helpful part of my workout routines. That being said, I myself have not seen any independent lab results and am surprised that a distributor wouldn’t offer a free month supply for this purpose. I would be happy to provide this.
I am sure by now someone else has offered this, but if not then let me know!
Thanks!
croulier says
btw Greg it may not be listed a lot longer,
Nasdaq has a time limit that a stock can be under a buck and stay listed
Greg B says
If by the time limit LV’s stock isn’t back over $1.00 per share, the company will do a reverse stock split to bring the price up to where it needs to be. But I don’t think that will be necessary. LV has too much potential to stay down for much longer. It’s a matter of letting enough people know about it.
Vogel says
Greg said: “If by the time limit LV’s stock isn’t back over $1.00 per share, the company will do a reverse stock split to bring the price up to where it needs to be. But I don’t think that will be necessary. LV has too much potential to stay down for much longer. It’s a matter of letting enough people know about it.”
No chance whatsoever that the stock is going to reach $1 before the 6-month probation term for de-listing has expired. There have been no positive signals whatsoever and the stock has been languishing in the low 50-cent range for quite some time.
If they do a reverse split to keep their NASDAQ listing, it’s going to be a horrible signal for investors. There is no conceivable scenario by which LFVN will be able to gain investor confidence.
It’s not a matter of “letting enough people know about it”. They’ve been doing that for 10 years now and look where it’s gotten them. Quite the contrary; when people know about Protandim and LFVN, its bad for the company because neither holds up to scrutiny. That’s why they market this product in the murky secretive netherworld of MLM, and the stock is a borderline anonymous poorly performing pink-sheeter penny stock that’s in imminent danger of being de-listed from the NASDAQ.
Aside from the fact that they’re marketing a snakeoil pyramid scheme, their revenue and distributor base have declined significantly and almost all of the senior executives and distributors have resigned or been terminated. Even the inventor of Protandim, Paul Myhill, admits that he doesn’t take the product .
You better start researching the next scam to jump to Greg cuz everyone knows this one is toast.
Luke says
The opinion of this lawyer is based on Anti pyramid laws witch he knows very well — I suggest you read it carefully. You will see Life Vantage requires you to pay 690.00 in order to earn commissions.
That is a securities violation and makes it an unregistered Securaty as the new distributor is not buying shares he is buying into a system to try and earn money.
This is a clear violation of Anti pyramid selling laws.
If you want to take a look at other companies that were shut down look up FHTM, Zeek Rewords, TelxFree, YTB, these companies were members of DSA and had all kinds of recognition all over ( look at Herbalife)
You have no idea what is or is not legal. I ran my own MLM and know these laws very well.
Greg B says
If LV was running an illegal scam, would it not have been shut down long before now? Did any of the companies you listed have their stock (if they were even publicly traded) listed on NASDAQ?
croulier says
umm Patrick what are you saying? That it is okay if is built on a lie just so some people make income from it and stay in their houses. Wow maybe they should start filing false insurance claims that would do more than keep them in their houses, hell it might even be enough to buy a whole new house. Where are your ethics???
Luke says
It’s important to know that Protadium is an Illegal pyramid and doomed to fail as soon as any one of many U.S. Regalitory agencies decides to investigate them (if you think the fact their publicy Traded means their regulated and so they must be legit, that means nothing when you violate Anti Pyramid Laws)
go to http://www.mlmlawyer.com and read Understanding Pyramids.
Greg B says
If LifeVantage was running an illegal pyramid scheme, then NASDAQ would not have allowed LV to be listed on its exchange. NASDAQ is very careful about who it allows to list; a company must meet certain criteria first, one of which is that they are not operating illegally. Would Real Salt Lake, a MLS franchise, have allowed LifeVantage to puts its logo on their jerseys if LV was running an illegal pyramid scheme?
RSL doubtless checked very carefully before agreeing to LV’s sponsorship, knowing that the bad publicity they would get if they made a mistake would far outweigh any money LV paid for the sponsorship. As for your linked website, all that is is the opinion of some lawyer, it is not a ruling issued by any court.
Vogel says
Wow! You’re still clinging to that losing argument even though:
(1) It was debunked already.
http://supplementclarity.com/protandim-research-review-lifevantage/#comment-88000
(2) NASDAQ has listed lots of companies that turned out to be fraudulent.
(3) LFVN is in the process of being delisted from the NASDAQ; and
http://www.4-traders.com/LIFEVANTAGE-CORP-11451734/news/LIFEVANTAGE–Notice-of-Delisting-or-Failure-to-Satisfy-a-Continued-Listing-Rule-or-Standard-Transf-20136635/
(4) Anyone with eyes and a brain can recognize LFVN as a putrid scam.
patsrick1943 says
The company published an earning statement, which gives a breakdown of monthly commissions by rank. It states that “The average commission paid to active Distributors each month was $285.48, or $3,425.75 on an annualized basis.” A couple hundred dollars each month might keep some people in there homes.
PhilC says
Cmon Patrick….really? It could also be taking a much needed 40 bucks (conservatively) from people that could be using that $ for something other than snake oil. Shame on you.
LisaRob says
That doesn’t take into account how much distributors spend on going to all the conventions, and they have to buy a certain amount of product a month (personal volume) to qualify for any commission. Considering the amount of work these people have to put into the “business,” the financial return is grim, if not in the negative numbers for the vast majority of distributors.
Diyanne says
If I had the money, I would personally buy a bottle for you to try, just to shut you up! But would you really have a unbiased opinion after taking it…I doubt it.This is probably why no distributors have taken you up on the offer!
I have taken Protandim to get off the drugs that the doctors pushed on me which had several side affects. I had to do it undercover as the doctor’s would drop me as a patient if they found out. (One actually said he would not be a part of it, to find another doctor).
The last doctor, after taking his tests for my autoimmune disease that he is required to do, said everything was perfect, continue on the drug regimen prescribed. (I have not taken them for 2 years, just Protandim and a multivitamin and a few other herbs not in Protandim.).nI was not doing well on the drugs, which they had to keep changing until I researched and decided to go natural.
I am currently not a distributor and only became one to buy at discount for my personal use, as they did not have other ways to do so at that time. For the price, it is cheaper than buying the supplements in it separately. Drugs do not cure, just mask the problem. Doctors need to be able to research supplements to help the body heal, without consequences.
The problem is that the government and the pharmaceuticals have tied our hands so that if you find a product that works for you, you are afraid to let others know or the company would be shut down and would no longer be available in the U.S.
Yes, there are bad products out there that make false claims, but without people being allowed to tell there story on products that work for them, how can you properly research?
Joe says
Diyanne, I have always said that there is value in what people say about their personal experiences with supplements. Those testimonials should be followed up by good research to better understand what is going on. As of today, I just don’t see that research, although I am always hopeful that it comes to light someday.
As for giving me a bottle, several distributors have graciously offered to give me a sample. At this time I’m not interested though. Regardless of that, I’m happy that you say Protandim has helped you and I wish you continued health.
Vogel says
Diyanne said: “I have taken Protandim to get off the drugs that the doctors pushed on me.”
The choice of whether or not to take drugs is entirely up to you, not your doctor. That aside, Protandim does nothing, so it is obviously a mistake on your part to attribute any medical miracles to Protandim. It’s nothing more than bait for a pyramid scam.
Diyanne said: “I had to do it undercover as the doctor’s would drop me as a patient if they found out. (One actually said he would not be a part of it, to find another doctor).”
That sounds like BS to me, but by all means, give us the names of those doctors so that there will be some means of verifying your story. You won’t though because your story is a misguided fabrication.
Diyanne said: “The problem is that the government and the pharmaceuticals have tied our hands so that if you find a product that works for you, you are afraid to let others know or the company would be shut down and would no longer be available in the U.S.”
That’s not a problem; it’s called consumer protection. Do you have any idea what things were like in the snakeoil golden age before regulations were put in place to prevent con artists from ripping off sick people with fake medicine. It’s very myopic to complain about this state of affairs while ignoring the big picture.
As for LifeVantage, looks like they are going to be bankrupt before the year’s over, so there’s a good chance the product won’t be available anywhere. Good riddance. It serves them right for all their years of lying to consumers and ripping off customers.
Diyanne said: “Yes, there are bad products out there that make false claims, but without people being allowed to tell there story on products that work for them, how can you properly research?”
It has been thoroughly documented that Protandim is one of those “bad products” and that LifeVanatge and its minions have made a plethora of false claims. You are putting forth a losing argument by suggesting that its unfair that the law prohibits people connected with the company from making unsubstantiated therapeutic claims about the product, especially claims of the type you made (i.e. vague, anonymous, unverifiable), which are about as believable as the claims made by people who say they were abducted and probed by aliens. You would certainly complain loudly if pharmaceutical companies were allowed to put forth untested products for the treatment of diseases, and yet you’re perfectly comfortable promoting a double standard for Protandim.
LifeVantage would be allowed to make therapeutic claims about their product if they had merely followed the process for getting a product approved as a medicinal agent. They had over a decade to do it but haven’t made any such effort. The reason why they haven’t is painfully obvious – the product is worthless and has no efficacy.
croulier says
Diyanne you are lucky that it worked for you I too have a chronic autoimmune disease and it did zero for me, zero……
April says
Looks like you corrected the suite but what about the main address? Looks like social media will know about this misinformation!!!
Joe says
April, sure I was wrong about the address. I admitted that. Funny you didn’t say anything about all the studies.
April says
If I see one thing on a website about a product that has misleading info. about a product, I refuse to look more on that website for any more information.
I decided to start taking Protandim after being sick for 6 months in and out of the hospital and Dr’s had no clue what was wrong with me.
I was losing weight by the day with foods going straight through me and my stool was banana yellow, the lil bit I was able to get down. I really thought I was done! I had severe heart burn that would go up into my esophagus and chest, and down into my arms. I felt like I was burning from within! I was extremely nauseated.
My parents was taking care of me and decided to start giving me both Protandim and Diatomacious Earth. After taking both products for almost 4 weeks, my body started to show a turn for the better. I will never forget the day I had a normal colored stool. I started gaining my weight back slowly. By the 2nd month of taking both products I felt normal 100%. I thank God everyday for my healing and I thank him for my parents because without them I would be dead today!
Joe says
April, I am very glad you are feeling better.
April says
Thank you Joe. I’m sorry about getting so angry with the wrong address thing. I thought it was done intentionally.
Maybe Protandim isn’t for everyone, but for sure, it was definitely a God sent to me when I was at my worst. Take Care
Joe says
April, no worries 🙂
LisaRob says
April says:
“If I see one thing on a website about a product that has misleading info. about a product, I refuse to look more on that website for any more information.”
Having an incorrect address is not misleading information about the product. Who really cares what the address is; why on Earth would it matter to anyone? The only thing noteworthy about their address is that they are based out of Utah, along with a plethora of other MLM businesses thanks to the passing of SB182, which essentially nullified Utah’s Pyramid Scheme Act. The bill exempted product based pyramid schemes, er, MLM’s, as long as products were consumed by anyone, including distributors.
As for your testimonial, there is no reason to believe that Protandim had anything to do with the improvement of your mysterious medical condition.
April says
Protandim has the ingredients listed on the back of it. It’s nothing but harmless herbs as long as you aren’t allergic to it. So what if people are making money off of it! Everybody has to make a living somehow! I could really care less about the pyramid schemes! If it doesn’t help people, then it will sooner or later die out!! Simple!! I will continue taking it as long as they are selling it!!
Vogel says
April said: “Protandim has the ingredients listed on the back of it. It’s nothing but harmless herbs as long as you aren’t allergic to it.”
Actually, the company’s FAQ lists a number of side effects and these may or not be related to allergy. And how would anyone if they are allergic to obscure ingredients like bacopa or ashwaganda? Are people just supposed to roll the dice to find out? And why would they do that for an overpriced MLM product that has no known health benefits.
Furthermore, the product, by virtue of the fact that it is regulated as a supplement, has not undergone any form of stringent safety testing, and the manufacturer is therefore not allowed to make claims about safety. Lastly, the manufacturer claims that the product activates NRF2; however, all drugs known to activate NRF2 have significant side effects.
So either Protandim activates NRF and has risks associated with that effect, or it doesn’t activate NRF2. You can’t have it both ways – i.e., claiming that it activates NRF2 but is free from side effects.
April said: “So what if people are making money off of it! Everybody has to make a living somehow!”
Funny, that’s probably the same thing that purse snatchers, heroin peddlers, arms dealers, and child slave traffickers say. And at least they actually make money for their efforts. Protandim traffickers have a cracked moral compass too, but 99% of them won’t even turn a profit.
April said: “I could really care less about the pyramid schemes!”
That statement is so callous it crosses the line into sociopathy. Why care about fraud and victimizing people, as long as you’re making (or hoping to make) a few coins along the way right? Any you wonder why people have such disdain for MLM scammers?
April said: “If it doesn’t help people, then it will sooner or later die out!! Simple!!”
There isn’t a stitch of reliable evidence that it ever helped even one person, so the logical assumption to make is that it doesn’t help people. BTW, LifeVantage is dying. The stock has rapidly lost half its value, executives and distributors are bailing en masse, revenue is down, etc. It would die faster, deservedly, if people like you weren’t still spreading the manure so thickly.
April says
It’s like any other Herb!!! Some people can take it and some people can’t!! Just plain ol common sense! Just like Advil or antibiotics. Some people can take it and some people can’t, because of the side effects. SIMPLE!!! This is called common sense! Need I say more!!
melly says
April
You say you are cured but also say you have been ‘on and off ‘ the stuff since 2012 so how do you know it was this stuff that actually cured you? How are you when you aren’t taking it? Why would you stop taking it then? Seems weird to be ‘on and off ‘ something which is you apparent salvation..
April says
Vogel,
Just to assure you that I can back my illness 100% with Dr bills and paperwork that will spin your head! I was on protandim from the time my parents started giving it to me until a year after my healing. It came a time in my life when the child support stopped and I was raising my 3 children on my own, so because of that I couldn’t afford any of my supplements.
I had no side effects on it and no side effects off of it, but I do have to say Protandim helped my blood pressure to be normal and of course helped me to feel normal again. (Normally I have very low blood pressure)
You will believe what you want to believe no matter what. And me likewise! I don’t care about what y’all say about the stuff, that’s all I know is that I love it and it does me wonders! Makes me feel normal! I’m one happy CHICKABEE!!
Have yourself a great night and a happy life!
melly says
… What other ‘herbs’ do you take?
Vogel says
April said: “Vogel, Just to assure you that I can back my illness 100% with Dr bills and paperwork that will spin your head! I was on protandim from the time my parents started giving it to me until a year after my healing.”
Why are you trying to assure me? If your intent is to prove that Protandim remedied an illness, then merely repeating your unverifiable claim isn’t going to do the trick. The bar for evidence is high for this sort of dubious claim. The way to prove it would be to at least publish a documented medical case study, or better still, run clinical trials and generate real scientific evidence, but LifeVantage doesn’t do that because they know their product has no medicinal effects. Your claim is no more convincing than if you were to say that you had been abducted and probed by aliens. You are playing people for suckers, or you are one yourself.
April said: “I had no side effects on it and no side effects off of it, but I do have to say Protandim helped my blood pressure to be normal and of course helped me to feel normal again. (Normally I have very low blood pressure).”
Protandim has never been documented to have an effect on blood pressure. If the product did alter your blood pressure, that would be an unintended side effect and a serious concern that should lead the product to be pulled from the market immediately.”
April said: “You will believe what you want to believe no matter what. And me likewise!”
I believe that LifeVantage’s years of lying about their snakeoil product having medicinal effects has finally caught up with them. They could well be facing bankruptcy before the year is over.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3175806-can-lifevantage-continue-as-a-going-concern
Vogel says
April said: “I thank God everyday for my healing and I thank him for my parents because without them I would be dead today!”
Without your parents you never would have been born in the first place!
As for your “testimonial” — worthless, except to confirm once again that LifeVantage scammers are still trying to convince people that Pretendumb cures/treats diseases, when in fact everyone knows it doesn’t.
April says
First of all Vogel/Vomit, really?!!! Damn, didn’t know I couldn’t be born without my parents!!!!
Second of all, it’s the people’s testimony that says it all! Maybe for some it does cure like it did for me!! I can see you are full of yourself and could really careless what other people experienced being on Protandim.
For me it wasn’t only Protandim, I was on Diatomacious Earth as well!
Like I said, it will die out if it doesn’t do anything for people. Apparently there are still tons of testimonies coming through! No matter how you look at it, Protandim will probably never die out.
I have been on it since 2012 on and off and it has done wonders for me! Drs told me whatever you are taking, keep taking it!! Nothing like some good ol herbs to detox your body! Nough said!!
Vogel says
April said: “Second of all, it’s the people’s testimony that says it all!”
What these testimonies say to me is that either the person saying them is so gullible that they’ve let themselves be convinced that a do-nothing spice pill cured them of something when it didn’t, or that it’s a typical MLM hooligan who would lie to their own mother to sell product and/or a pyrmaid scheme. Seriously, why is it hard to convince you that anonymous testimonials are not only worthless, they are the hallmark of a scam. That isn’t just my opinion; it’s the advice of consumer protection and advocacy groups across the country; and it’s just plain commonsense.
If the company wants to convince people that Pretendumb does anything to remedy any medical condition, they should gather and present proper reliable evidence. The fact that they haven’t after a decade and still rely on anonymous shills speaks volumes.
April says
First of all, That is not the correct address you put up for Life Vantage! If you google their correct address, you would actually see where they are located! Just makes this website look bad! People do your own research!
Joe says
April, you are incorrect. I have the correct address, although I had them listed at suite 100 and it now says suite 300. I have updated my review with the suite #300 (is that what you were referring to?). I just doubled checked and main address I have listed is correct. Here is the link to their contact page if you would like to see for yourself: https://www.lifevantage.com/company/contact-us/
April says
This website says the address is 9815 S. Monroe and that’s incorrect. The correct address is 9785 S. Monroe street
Joe says
April you are correct and I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. Typo corrected.
April says
Thank you! I appreciate that!
Protandim User Australia says
I used Protandim for 9 months. I did not get my levels tested but my health conditions have shown no sign of improvement. I have not seen any benefit in taking the supplement. I feel stressed, anxious, depressed, my entire body is in agony. I stopped taking the supplement a few week ago and I feel no worse (the last few days I feel slightly better) so will see if anything changes over the next few months.
Greg B says
Protandim lowers oxidative stress, whether you “see” it or not. How this affects people varies from person to person, but the effect is almost never negative. I’m sorry that you are feeling stressed, anxious, and depressed, and are in agony, but do you have any reason to think that Protandim is responsible for it? That fact that you did not really feel any different after stopping Protandim for a few weeks indicates that Protandim was not your problem, as it only takes two weeks, at most, after stopping Protandim for it to be completely gone from your body. Protandim should be thought of as similar to medicine used to reduce high blood pressure, or high cholesterol.
You may not “feel” these medicines working, but you still continue taking them, because you know they are helping your body. Oxidative stress is also a serious threat to your long-term health, so lowering it now will significantly increase your odds of living a longer, healthier life. No guarantees, of course, and Protandim is not a drug, so the analogy between it and anti-hypertension medicines is not exact, but you get my point.
Honolulu Aunty says
I used to be a distributor and when I first used Protandim, I noticed a positive difference in how I felt. It also seemed to help the stiffness in my hands and my eyes. So, I continued to take it for years, until LifeVantage decided to drop me as a distributor as well as stop my auto shipments of the product because I had reviewed the product favorably and the business side of it negatively.
It has now been a few months that I am completely off of Protandim, and I feel fine. It actually feels great to save $50/month on the autoship. Perhaps for me, Protandim acted like a catalyst at first until my own defense and immune systems kicked in. In any event, I it works for some, and not for others, science or no science.
As a distributor, I never pushed people to try it once they decided that it didn’t do anything for them if it didn’t work for them after their trial run.
Atomic says
Try something else. Simple as that.
Jordon says
Greg B……….Protandim User Australia… did not say that the symptoms she/he listed where a result of taking protandim, you went on a tangent with that in mind. The poster was commenting that the listed symptoms remained with her/him regardless of taking the product or not taking it.
Atomc says
I heard Protandim is already in Thailand as of March 2105. Are the people over there going to be disappointed? Do we have any volunteers to tell those people not to waste their money? I’m not against it. I’m just pointing out that if something doesn’t hold up it will eventually fall apart. But before it does many will make some good money.