Update 4/7/24. Does Viviscal help thinning hair grow thicker and stronger or is it a scam? Viviscal is one of the best-known hair growth supplements. And for good reason. There are several clinical studies on this dietary supplement. In this review, you will learn about the research on ViviScal to help you decide if it really works or not. In addition, I'll address the side effects some people are reporting. Does it really work? Let's see.
Viviscal Ingredients
According to the Supplement Facts label, 1 tablet of Viviscal Extra Strength has the following ingredients:
Ingredient | Amount per serving | Percent Daily Value |
---|---|---|
Total Carbohydrates | <1 g | <1% DV |
Vitamin C | 59 mg | 98% DV |
Niacinamide (Niacin) | 12 mg | 60% DV |
Biotin | 120 micrograms | 40% DV |
Iron | 10 mg | 56% DV |
Zinc | 11 mg | 73% DV |
AminoMar Marine Complex | 450 mg | N/A |
Horsetail Extract | 36.7 mg | N/A |
Millet Seed Extract | 7.5 mg | N/A |
No prescription is needed to buy Viviscal.
AminoMar Marine Complex
The AminoMar complex is said to be the main key ingredient. The AminoMar Marine Complex is composed of:
- Shark Powder (shark cartilage)
- Mollusk Powder (from Oysters)
What parts of sharks and mollusks are used in Viviscal, I can't say. But, these ingredients do come from “sustainable marine sources.”

I called the company that makes the supplement and was informed shark cartilage is part of the AminoMar complex. The name “AminoMar” complex is the name the company gives to the shark and mollusk powder combination.
Horsetail Extract
The scientific name for this is Equisetum arvense. While they don't tell us what extract of horsetail Viviscal contains, we are told it comes from the stem. What I can say is that when I searched the National Library of Medicine for “Horsetail and hair growth” and “Equisetum arvense and hair” no studies showed up.
Horsetail does appear to have some anti-inflammatory properties and I wonder if this might help “support” hair growth. I am speculating about this.
Millet Seed Extract
The scientific name for this is Sorghum bicolor. It's also called “broom corn,” a reference I believe comes from when this stuff was used to make brooms. The role it plays in human hair growth, I can't say.
Vitamin C
I located one study on vitamin C and hair growth. Technically this study was on a vitamin C-like compound called L ascorbic acid 2 phosphate. Basically, the compound caused the elongation of hair shafts in mice and also in isolated hair follicles in a test tube.
This is intriguing but as far as can be determined by this reporter, no study has shown that L ascorbic acid 2 phosphate caused hair growth in a human. What about vitamin C itself? Does vitamin C grow hair? Well, it does help us make collagen. Collagen is a protein in our hair. But, I could not find any direct proof for vitamin C supplements promoting hair growth.
Viviscal Before & After Proof
See the research and before and after pictures
Watch on my Youtube channel if you prefer
Niacinamide
This is the type of niacin found in the product. My guess is niacinamide is used because it does not cause facial flushing and redness.
Some may have heard of an anti-aging supplement called nicotinamide riboside (NR). While NR is not in Viviscal, it does contain one of its building blocks – niacinamide.
See the nicotinamide riboside review for more on that supplement.
Biotin
Biotin, a B vitamin (sometimes called vitamin H) is found in many shampoos and other hair products. While a lack of biotin may lead to hair loss in some people, I'm not convinced that most of us are lacking in it because many foods provide it. Bacteria inside of us can make it too. Either way, while a lack of biotin might lead to hair loss, I'm not aware of any evidence that biotin supplements grow hair.
Iron and Zinc
Viviscal provides a good amount of both of these minerals and both of these minerals have been linked to hair loss. For more on this see this review of iron and hair loss and zinc and hair loss.
There is a Viviscal for Men but it does not have iron. I think this is wise because too much iron may not be healthy for men.
Other Ingredients
Viviscal also contains these “other ingredients” according to the product website:
- Microcrystalline cellulose
- Maltodextrin
- Hydroxypropyl Methyl Cellulose
- Silicon dioxide
- Magnesium stearate
- Sodium carboxymethyl cellulose
- Glycerol
- Artificial orange flavoring
- Modified starch
Ingredients are listed in order as they occur as they appear on the label. These ingredients don't play any role in the hair growth benefits of Viviscal.
ViviScal Research
Let’s review the Viviscal research next.
Pilot Study #1 (not published)
Study title. “A 10-week pilot consumer perception test to evaluate the overall acceptability of a viviscal oral supplement when used by females with self-perceived thinning hair.”
This study involved 40 women and lasted 40 weeks. Results indicate that Viviscal reduces hair loss by 46%.
Problems with this study. This investigation does not seem to be a published peer-reviewed study Also, it's said they started with 40 women, but only 16 completed the study. Why did so many drop out? This high dropout rate reduces the significance of the study.
Clinical Study #2
Researchers in Finland published what appears to be the very first published Viviscal clinical study. The investigation lasted 6 months and involved 40 young men. Half the people got ViviScal and half received a placebo (fish extract).
After 6 months, those taking Viviscal had a 38% increase in non-vellus hair (in other words hair that’s not “peach fuzz”). Those getting the placebo saw a 2% increase in non-vellus hair. That's pretty good.
Clinical Study #3
Study title. Treatment of Alopecia Areata, Alopecia Totalis and Alopecia Universalis with Oral Viviscal® for 12 months.
This study appears to have been conducted in 1994.
Study problem. This does not seem to be a published, peer-reviewed study.
Clinical Study #4
Revista Brasileira de Medicina. 1997. Vol 53; No. 3; p 1-5. Pareira, Jose Marcos.
This study does not appear to be in English and can’t be located.

From what I could gather, researchers looked at 200 men with male pattern baldness (androgenetic alopecia). After 6 months of ViviScal treatment, 75.3% had decreased hair loss. 14.6% of men showed partial hair re-growth.
2012 Study
Researchers in the US conducted a small study of 10 women aged 21-75 years of age who had thinning hair. The women took either Viviscal (10 women in this group) or a placebo (5 women in this group) twice a day for 6 months.
After 6 months, those taking Viviscal showed significantly more hair growth compared to the placebo group, which showed more hair loss. Those taking Viviscal also reported more hair shine and skin improvements.
2015 Study
This investigation lasted 3 months and involved 60 women (21-65 years of age) who were either given Viviscal Extra Strength (2x per day) or a placebo. After 3 months of use, women who took Viviscal:
- Had more hair in the areas of their scalps measured
- Had less hair shedding
Women also reported they felt better also. It's possible they felt better because their new hair growth helped their confidence and outlook on life.
2016 Study
This investigation involved men with thinning hair. For 6 months, 60 men with thinning hair were given either a placebo or ViviScal. After 6 months, men taking the supplement were shown to have significant improvements in
- total hairs counted
- density of hairs
- more terminal hairs (terminal hairs are the thick hair on the head)
When researchers performed the “hair pull test' fewer hairs were removed. This appears to show ViviScal strengthened hair too.
See the video review of ViviScal for before and after pictures.
Summary of Research
Here is a quick summary of the research. Refer to the studies above to see their specifics.
Study | Study Results |
---|---|
Pilot Study (unpublished) | Viviscal works |
1992 study | Viviscal works |
1997 study | Viviscal works |
2012 study | Viviscal works |
2015 study | Viviscal works |
2016 study | Viviscal works |
Viviscal vs. Viviscal Extra Strength
There are different types of Viviscal. When I called Viviscal, I was told that this mostly has to do with the number of Amino Mar complexes they have. Here are the differences between them:
- Viviscal Extra Strength: 450 mg
- Viviscal For Men: 450 mg
- Viviscal Professional: 475 mg
When I called the company, I was told the professional version (Viviscal Pro) was not to be sold to the public. it's only available through doctors or salons.
Viviscal For Men
I get a lot of questions about which hair growth supplements are best for men. Here are the ingredients in Viviscal Extra Strength vs. Viviscal For Men side by side:
Viviscal Extra Strength | Viviscal For Men |
---|---|
Total carbs <1g (<1%DVP | Total carbs <1 g (<1%DV) |
Vitamin C 59 mg (98%DV) | Vitamin C 30 mg (50% DV) |
Niacin 12 mg (60% DV) | Zinc 8 mg (53% DV) |
Biotin 120 mcg (40% DV) | N/A |
Iron 10 mg (56% DV) | N/A |
Zinc 11 mg (73% DV) | 8 mg (53% DV) |
Amino Mar Complex 450 mg | Amino Mar Complex 452.9 mg |
Horsetail 36.7 mg | Horsetail 24.5 mg |
Millet seed 7.5 mg | N/A |
Flaxseed extract 50 mg |
In the table above % DV = percent daily value. “N/A” = does not contain that nutrient.
As can be seen, both the men's and women's versions are very similar. They both have the same key ingredients. In fact, the Male version has a tad more of the Amino Mar Marine complex and Horsetail extract compared to Viviscal Extra Strength. Also, note that Millet Seed Extract has been replaced with Flaxseed Extract in the Men's version. I liked that the Men's version did not contain iron. Too much iron might not be good for men.
Bottom line: I believe men could take the women's version and have the same results as if they took the men's version. Since the men's version may be more expensive, this is something to consider.
Viviscal vs. The Competition
Let's now take a look at how the supplement stacks up to other popular hair growth supplements.
Viviscal vs. Nutrafol
Nutrafol is another very popular hair supplement. Like Viviscal, there is a version for men and women. Nutrafol is said to work by reducing inflammation and inhibiting a hormone called DHT. Nutrafol has more ingredients than Viviscal. Nutrafol does have 1 clinical study showing it might work. So which is better? It would be nice to see a head-to-head comparison of Nutrafol vs.

Viviscal. I won't hold my breath for that to happen anytime soon.
Watch this video: Nutrafol vs. Viviscal
Viviscal vs. Provillus
The Provillus website (Provillus.com) states that it is “Clinically Proven and FDA Approved.” And they are correct. It is. This is because Provillus is minoxidil (Rogaine), the hair growth drug we've all heard of. Provillus is not a supplement. Provillus is a 5% solution of minoxidil that's applied topically to the scalp. It's no different than any other kind of minoxidil you've seen.
In theory, Viviscal might work better with minoxidil. They both have studies showing they can help women and men. Fortunately, Rogaine (minoxidil) is available without a prescription and it's not too expensive.
Viviscal vs. Keranique
Keranique is touted as a hair growth system. There is Keranique shampoo, conditioner, Keranique Regrowth Treatment, and hair spray. The Keranique Regrowth Treatment contains “the only FDA-approved and clinically proven non-prescription ingredient to regrow hair and revitalize hair follicles.” It does – the ingredient is minoxidil (Rogaine). Keranique may be a fine product that can help support hair growth, but it's the minoxidil in it that regrows hair.
While there are no head-to-head studies comparing Viviscal to Keranique, in theory, they may work better together when combined with the minoxidil in Keranique's Regrowth Treatment serum.
Viviscal vs. Halo Beauty
Halo Beauty is a skin, nails, and hair supplement by YouTube star Tati Westbrook. Halo Beauty is a combination of various vitamins, herbs, and other compounds. While there is a little crossover between these two supplements (Halo Beauty has vitamin C and horsetail, too), it doesn't have the Amino Mar complex. So, how they stack up to each other is unknown.
Viviscal vs. Joyome
Joyome is an anti-wrinkle cream developed by the makers of Plexus Slim. As far as it can be determined, Joyome has no effects on hair growth or hair loss. As such, I don't think these products are comparable to each other. Here's my video review of Plexus Joyome:
Viviscal Side Effects
I believe Viviscal is safe for healthy people. Few side effects and adverse reactions have been reported. Here is a brief list of things to consider when taking this supplement. This list is not complete:
- Start with less than is recommended for the first week to see how you respond.
- Speak to your doctor first if you are pregnant or breastfeeding.
- Stop taking at least 2 weeks before having surgery.
- Show the supplement to your pharmacist if you take any prescription medications like blood thinners.
- Avoid this supplement if you are vegan.
- Speak to your doctor first if you are allergic to fish. Viviscal contains shark cartilage and mollusk powder.
- Viviscal has iron and vitamin C. Speak to your doctor if you have hemochromatosis (iron overload disease).
- There's no good proof that Viviscal causes liver damage. However, if you have liver disease, speak to your doctor first.
In “scientific study #1” summarized above, there is mention of a study participant getting headaches which caused the person to drop out of the study. In the Pdf file of this study – which you can view on the Viviscal website – they make reference to “Appendix V” which lists the reasons why people dropped out of the study. Unfortunately, Appendix V is not part of the Pdf file.
Viviscal And Sleep Problems
If you read the comments below, you'll notice several people reporting that Viviscal may cause insomnia. I saw no mention of insomnia in any of the Viviscal clinical studies so it's not known how common this is.
Horsetail does contain small amounts of nicotine. It's very little, but could this cause sleep problems? I can't say. For more on this topic, read the comments section below.
Does Viviscal Contain Mercury?
I called the company that makes this supplement – Church & Dwight Co. I was told that Viviscal does not contain mercury. The controversy over this involves shark cartilage powder. Previous research has noted that shark cartilage supplements may contain toxic mercury. But this doesn't mean Viviscal has mercury. When I called the Viviscal company, I was told their latest testing showed levels of mercury were 0.02 mg per kg, which is lower than the amount permitted by both US and EU standards.
I was also told the version of Viviscal sold on Amazon does not contain any mercury at all. It's at a zero level. This is because of the rules Amazon must follow when shipping internationally. Church and Dwight formulates a different version for Amazon that does not contain any shark cartilage, a source of mercury. Because the Amazon version does not contain shark cartilage, this means it also does not contain any mercury.
Does Viviscal Contain BMAA?
β-Methylamino-L-alanine, also known as BMAA, is a brain toxin that is produced by some types of bacteria (called cyanobacteria) and other microorganisms. BMAA has been implicated in the development of Parkinson's disease and ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease). Because BMAA has been found in shellfish, this is of concern to some who use Viviviscal. Thankfully, this is not a problem. I called the Church & Dwight company and asked about the amount of BMAA in Viviscal. I was told Viviscal does not contain any BMAA.
Viviscal And Gaining Weight
Some people have also reported Viviscal has caused them to gain weight. None of the studies reported this side effect. I am not sure how common weight gain side effect is or if it might be a fluke? See the comments for more on this.
Who Makes Viviscal?
Viviscal is sold by Lifes2good (Lifes2Good.com), a company that markets many health and beauty products. While the global corporate office is located in Ireland, in the US, they can be found at 355 N Canal Street, Chicago, IL 60606. They also have an office in London.
Lifes2Good is part of a larger company called Church & Dwight Co., Inc, located in New Jersey. This organization has several familiar brands including OxyClean, Kaboom, Orajel, and even Arm & Hammer Baking Soda. Church and Dwight is a publicly-traded company (stock symbol CHD).
I was told they are phasing out the Lifs2good name and just using Church & Dwight in the future.

The Lifes2good company has been in business since 1997 according to the Better Business Bureau. The BBB gave this company a rating of A+ when this review was updated. See the BBB file for updates and more information.
Church and Dwight has an D rating with the BBB. See the BBB file for updates and more information.
Contact Viviscal
According to the company website, customer support can be reached at 877-333-4581. The Better Business Bureau also provides this number: 312-454-6167. The address for Viviscal is 355 N Canal St, Chicago, IL 60606-1207. The product website states the supplement is made in Ireland.
Church and Dwight, which now owns Viviscal, is located at 500 Charles Ewing Blvd Princeton South Corporate Center Trenton, NJ 08628-3448. The phone number is 609-683-5900.
Finola Hughes And ViviScal
Previously, actress Finola Hughes has appeared in Viviscal ads. She is listed on the website as a spokesperson. I assume this means she’s a paid spokesperson.
Viviscal And Molly Sims
Actress, model, and author Molly Sims is also a spokesperson. She is listed as a 20-year user of Viviscal. Her story of how she started losing her hair in her 20s is on the product website. I assume she is a paid spokesperson.
Buy Viviscal
This supplement is VERY popular and can be purchased at a wide range of stores like Walgreens, Costco, BJs, Sam's Club, Walmart, CVS, Rite Aid, Ulta, and Target as well as on Amazon. Here is Viviscal on Amazon
Viviscal Cost
Viviscal extra strength costs $99 per bottle according to the supplement's website. There is also a scalp lotion which is $19.99 but it doesn't have the same ingredients as the pill– and there is no good proof that the scalp lotion helps re-grow hair. The same thing is true for Viviscal shampoo and other products.
My advice: stick with Viviscal tablets. Don't worry about the shampoo or scalp lotion.
Interestingly, the shampoo does not contain caffeine, which is part of Thicker Fuller Hair I reviewed previously.
Viviscal Elite
The Elite supplement contains an auto-ship program where they send you a 90-day supply every 3 months (90 days) so you don't run out. Shipping is free with the Elite program and some free gifts are included also. It looks like the Elite program is for combo products. There seems to be no proof the Elite program offers clinically proven advanges over the regular viviscal formula.
Viviscal Pro & Con
Pro | Con |
Supplement has research | May take 3-6 months to see changes |
All studies show it works | |
Company supports studies | |
The company is well known | |
Reports show no side effects | |
Seems to work in women and men |
Other Hair Products
Several people have told me that they have gotten good results using a product called Toppik. This is not a hair growth supplement but rather a fine powder that binds to existing hair, making it look thicker and fuller. I have met people with thinning hair who have used this product, and they give it high marks.
The Church and Dwight Co. now owns Toppik (smart move if you ask me).
Does ViviScal Work?
Viviscal has various clinical studies to prove it grows thinning hair and/or slows hair loss. For the most part, the studies appear to be well done. In the testimonials below, several people have stated it does work. Based on the research and testimonials, this may be something worth trying.
Here's Viviscal on Amazon
Other Hair Growth Supplement Reviews
- Viviscal vs. Nutrafol Review
- PHYTO Re30 Review
- Castor Oil: Does It Grow Hair?
- Gray Hair Supplements Review
- Pseudocatalase Review
- Halo Beauty Review
- Amla Fruit and Hair Growth Review
- Does Creatine Cause Hair Loss?
- Hair Essentials Review
- Rosemary oil for Balding and Regrowing Hair (video)
Hello,
I would like to know what the most effective hair regrowth herbal supplement is, that you have reviewed over the years. I’m quickly losing my hair (male pattern baldness) and very very sad. :((
Vee, I wish I had a good answer for you. I have never seen any herbal supplement or vitamin /mineral that will re-grow hair. I wish I had another answer for you Vee. I really do! Im experimenting with Viviscal right now. Its been 2 months and so far no change for me. Ill give it 6 months and at the end of my “study” I’ll update my review with what happened.
Do get your thyroid hormone levels checked. Hair loss can be a sign of hypothyroidism.
I have been taking the Viviscal tablets now for nearly 3 months. I have not noticed any change at all to my hair thinning or loss!
Reading the other posts I also have problems sleeping and I have also gained some weight. On another note, not sure if this is related to the product, but my toilet habits have dramatically changed. I used to have the need to do a number 2 a couple of times a week. It is now daily & they seem to be large and quite hard. Also strange colour.
I will continue with the tablets for 6 months and see how I get on.
I have been taking Viviscal extra-strenght for 7 months. My hair is in fact fuller and longer. I don’t suffer from any side effects. Last night I visited a friend whom I haven’t seen in a year and He thought I was wearing extensions…
I have been using Viviscal for almost a month. I am having less hair in the drain. I am just now seeing new growth around my temples. I have had no weight gain or sleep problems. I know it is early to tell, but it is giving me hope I may see some hair return. I will keep updating on my progress.
I commented before about my insomnia increasing while taking Viviscal. Well went off it for a few days and my sleep improved then tried starting it at one pill a day. After two days noticed my sleep was disrupted again & I was experiencing slight heart palpitations.
The company suggested I speak to a pharmacist since I take Armour thyroid for hypothyroidism. Pharmacist said that for some reason the Viviscal was enhancing the thyroid meds & making me on the hyper side. I’ve always been very sensitive to meds but just want others to be aware that if you are on thyroid meds watch out for any hyper symptoms. Will have to stop the Viviscal for now 🙁
Merle, thanks for the update. Interesting. Ive been experimenting with viviscal for the last 2 months (and am also taking synthroid) but have not noticed any sleep problems. Maybe Armour thyroid makes it different? Anybody else having the same problems?
Hello! I have been taking Vivi for a month now!!! I haven’t had any adverse effects I thought! I have been having some difficulty staying asleep and I thought it wad just me. By the way I usually slept during the night without any problems. I read someone else’s thread and she mentioned insomnia. I will start taking it in the am instead of with dinner or before going to bed. As far as hair growth I’m not sure. I already Have tons of new growth and it’s hard to tell. BUT in one of my bald spots I see little prickly black hairs coming in. Vivi is not all I take if you read my initial post. I want to relax my hair so I can really see my growth. I’m very excited about my regimen.
I have been taking Vivascal for about a month and I can honestly say that I am starting to gain weight more than I care to since I am an older woman and hard to loose weight as it its. Right now as far as the hair goes, I am not sure yet, but will let you know.
I have been taking vivascal for about 7 months and i have had very good results defenately recommend it .
Drugstore.com has both Viviscal products at low prices with free shipping over $25 I am just starting Hair Repair.
I started using Viviscal because I saw a doctor/guest on the Dr Oz show recommend it for greying hair. I have been using Viviscal a little over a month with no changes whatsoever. No change in color, or the thickness of my hair. I have extremely short hair, so I would see results by this time if it were actually working.
I’m going to finish the 60 days worth I bought, but I don’t think I’ll continue. I don’t have a thinning problem, just a greying issue. So far I have found nothing to support the claims made on the Dr Oz show. Like the author, I researched the product, and found little to support Viviscal’s efficacy.
need to see reports from those that are using this product – anecdotal evidence will have to do, since no clinical studies are available
I am a 20 year old male who has been diagnosed with Alopecia Areata. I have been taking cortisone shots for the past year or so and have seen slim to none when it comes to results. I am just learning about Viviscal and was interested in trying the supplement. My question is that after one is off the pill after the 6 months or so, does the new grown hair begin to fall out again?
Michael, good question. Id guess yes it might. have you called the company and asked them this?
I have been on Viviscal for a couple of weeks. I am seeing a little less hair fall when washing, but still a good amount. I will keep updating. I did have a chines practitioner tell me we can be iron poor although tests may show differently. Only to eat more iron fortified foods,but don’t supplement. So I am doing that too. Iron def. can cause hair loss along with thyroid. So something to at least be aware of.
Also I did see the Viviscal has Professional Strength now, only sold in Salons.
I emailed Viviscal asking the difference between Hair Repair and Extra Strength and this is their reply:
The Viviscal hair nutrition program has been specifically developed to nourish thinning hair and promote existing hair growth. Viviscal Extra Strength contains the 100% natural AminoMar CTM Marine Complex that supplies vital nutrients needed to nourish thinning hair and promote existing hair growth.
Viviscal Extra Strength is suitable for you if you are experiencing thinning hair and also nourishes the hair which would result in healthier, stronger hair, whereas Viviscal Hair Repair would help restore damaged hair but would not help thinning hair.
Adele, thanks for doing that!
Been taking viviscal for about two weeks twice a day for thinning and shedding hair. I will post an update when I have finished my first box.
There have been many great reviews on the product in regards to increasing hair growth. Does it also cause increased hair growth on the body? I am currently getting laser treatments on my legs/underarms to stop their hair growth and would hate to sabotage that with Viviscal. Has anyone had any experience with increased leg/underarm hair growth?
Hi Joe
I have ordered one of each and will test. BTW i signed to be notified by email when there is a new post, but your response was not sent. Can you check please? Thanks so much.
Hi Adele, I think you’re the first person to mention this to me. Try clicking the little box again to see if that fixes the problem.
hi Joe, came across your blog today & think its great!! You do very thorough & informative reviews! I just started to take Viviscal Extra Strength 2x a day, 5 days ago & started to experience insomnia and feeling overstimulated the last couple of nights.
I will stop it for a few days to see if that helps, but wondered if anyone else experienced that as well. Called customer service & they said there is no ingredient in Viviscal that should cause that but I have not taken anything different in the last 5 days & do not even drink caffeine. Thanks for any input!!
Hi Merle, glad you found my website! So far I don’t think anybody has said that it’s kept them up at night. I’ve been experimenting with this Viviscal myself for over a month and I can say is not caused insomnia in me. Has anybody else experienced sleeping problems with Viviscal?
What is the difference between the Hair Repair and the Extra Strength?
My hair has lost volume and is thin from over processing.
Thanks for this site.
Adele, good question. I can only imagine that the extra stretch viviscal has more of its active ingredients. How much more I dont know.
i have naturally thin/fine hair in my mid 30s and I’ve been taking viviscal for the past 8 months now. it seemed to work for first 2-3 months however it kinda stops there even though I’ve been telling myself to be patient.
i am seriously considering to stop after i complete my current course which is a big disappointment for me after all.